~ from email ~
You said that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not repentance, conversion or justification, but it is for power for preaching, healing, visions, dreams, prophecies and miracles. Then how do you interpret these verses? 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:4-5, and Galatians 5:22.
People have twisted these passages in order to attack the biblical doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, these passages do not contradict the doctrine, and they are not even relevant to the specific point of dispute about the baptism of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free — and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
It has been competently argued that this refers to the action of the Spirit, who baptizes us into one body, and not the action of Jesus, who baptizes us with his power. If this is true, then this is actually evidence for the doctrine that the baptism of the Spirit is not the same as conversion. The baptism of the Spirit has always been credited to Jesus, and this text refers to a different operation. To bring this as a refutation of the doctrine is not only a misuse, but it is blasphemy against Jesus Christ, rejecting his role as the baptizer with the Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless, for the sake of argument, let us throw out this first point. Let us pretend that Paul is talking about the baptism of the Spirit, and let us pretend that it says that we are all baptized with the Spirit, and let us pretend that this means conversion and the baptism of the Spirit are the same thing (although even if we pretend the first two are true, third point does not logically follow). That said, Paul sometimes speaks as if he assumes that all believers have been baptized in water. This means that we must also use this interpretation on those verses where he mentions faith and baptism at the same time, or where he refers to them as interchangeable. This must mean that when a person believes in Christ, water comes down from heaven and drenches him, or that person is miraculously thrown into water when he believes. Bravo.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
It betrays ignorance and it begs the question to use this text against the biblical doctrine that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is distinct from conversion. It betrays ignorance because those who teach that the baptism is distinct also insist that a person receives the Holy Spirit in a sense at conversion (Romans 8:16), only that the baptism of the Spirit is a subsequent operation of the Holy Spirit that grants power for ministry. It begs the question because for verse 22 to apply, it must already assume that conversion and the baptism are the same thing, because otherwise this could just be talking about the Spirit’s operation in conversion as distinct from a subsequent operation.
Then again, it is irrelevant even if Paul is talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, since he also assumes that believers have received water baptism. The issue is whether there is any basis anywhere in the Bible that conversion and the baptism of the Spirit are in fact two things, and there is clear basis for this, just as there is clear basis that faith and water baptism are two things.
Moreover, even if all these texts are referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, even if all these texts teach that all believers have received this baptism of the Holy Spirit, and even if all these texts teach that conversion and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same thing, it remains that the Bible teaches that the baptism of the Holy Spirit confers miraculous powers on the Christian (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, 2:17-18).
Therefore, one who claims to be a believer and who claims that conversion and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same thing should manifest and experience this power. Otherwise, he is defective, unbelieving, or as required by his own doctrine, reprobate, and headed toward endless torment in hellfire.
Suppose Paul and Henry are always together, and suppose Paul and Henry are in fact the same person, and then suppose it is certain that Henry always have a dog with him. Now if there is no dog, you are not Paul or Henry! If there is no dog, the only way that you can be Paul is if Paul and Henry are two different people, and if Paul and Henry are not always together.
Thus those who use this text suffer a quadruple backfire: 1. It shows ignorance of the opposing position, 2. It begs the question, 3. It must also make faith and water baptism identical, and 4. It implies that these people are spiritually defective, unbelieving, or even unsaved and reprobate. The first shows that these people are lazy and unfair. The second shows that they are stupid and irrational. The third shows that they are incompetent and sacrilegious. The fourth shows that they are powerless, faithless, or reprobate.
Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the praise of his glory.
The text shows that there is an operation of the Spirit at conversion, but does not show that there is only one operation of the Spirit that is identical to the operation called the baptism, or the one intended to confer power. Just showing that there is an operation of the Spirit at conversion, or that all believers have received the Spirit in a sense, means nothing to the debate.
In fact, the Pentecostals that I know tend to teach the Spirit’s operation at conversion much more strongly and much more frequently than these other people. Then after that, they teach an additional operation of the Spirit that confers power. This text does nothing to contradict this.
If the text is indeed referring to the baptism of the Spirit, and if it is indeed assuming that all believers have it, then again we have the same situation as those texts that assume all believers have been baptized in water, or that refer to faith and water baptism as if they are interchangeable. It does not mean that faith and water baptism are the same thing.
In addition, there must also be some evidence of the kind of power that the Bible says must accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If there is no such power, if this power follows the baptism, and if the baptism is the same as conversion, it must mean that the person is unconverted, headed for hell.
The quadruple backfire applies again. Lazy and unfair. Stupid and irrational. Incompetent and sacrilegious. Powerless and faithless, or reprobate.
Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit — just as you were called to one hope when you were called — one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Same thing. The quadruple backfire applies again. Lazy and unfair. Stupid and irrational. Incompetent and sacrilegious. Powerless and faithless, or reprobate.
So what if there is only one Spirit? I have never heard anyone teach that we receive one Spirit at conversion, and a different Spirit when we are baptized with the Spirit. The doctrine claims that these are two operations of the same Spirit. So what if there is one Lord? So what if there is one baptism? There could be three trillion operations of the Spirit, and still one Spirit.
What in the world am I doing here? Why do I have to explain something like this? Where am I? Is this real life? Am I being pranked? Where are the cameras?
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Again, everyone that I have ever heard teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a different thing from conversion, also insists that anyone who believes in Jesus has the Holy Spirit in a sense.
They use different expressions to distinguish. For example, one might say that the Spirit comes into a person at conversion, but comes upon a person at the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The same person might say that conversion results in fruit, and the baptism of the Spirit results in power. Another one might use slightly different expressions to teach the same doctrine, but he would also say that one has the Spirit in a sense in conversion, just not what the Bible calls the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Using this text against the doctrine that the baptism of the Spirit is distinct from conversion means that one must assume this doctrine denies any operation of the Spirit at conversion. This is foolishness, ignorance, and the sin of slander. The doctrine does not make any such denial. It affirms an intense operation of the Spirit at conversion. The Spirit changes the person’s nature and even dwells in him, and witnesses to him that he is a child of God. Rather, the claim is that, on the basis of other biblical passages, the baptism of the Spirit remains a distinct and subsequent operation.
Whether or not one agrees with it, this is what the doctrine teaches. A text that describes an operation of the Spirit that applies to all believers is irrelevant. Many operations of the Spirit apply to all believers, but that does not address what the doctrine claims about the baptism of the Spirit. Both the charismatic and non-charismatic teenagers in my high school understood this, but professional scholars do not. Most of these students had never been taught the doctrine directly, but they inferred the main points from listening to what some of the others said. In some churches, even the kids in nursery know the difference, but seminary theologians do not, and they write whole volumes to refute the doctrine, and some even become famous for it. Huh.
The quadruple backfire applies again. Lazy, unfair, stupid, irrational, incompetent, and sacrilegious. Powerless and faithless, or reprobate.
Therefore, the use of these passages against the biblical doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit betrays ignorance of the opposing position, dishonesty in scholarship and engagement, incompetence in basic reading comprehension, inability to make elementary inferences and linear arguments without begging the question, and the possibility that I am being pranked on television. The abuse often results in slander and blasphemy. The arguments are not only invalid or irrelevant, but they also backfire, exposing unbelief, prejudice, and lack of intelligence and integrity.
The people pretend to be experts in the Bible, but they lack honesty in dealing with their opponents and in dealing with the things of God. They should be cast out of discussions on the matter. If they are not going to become honest about this, we have no obligation to let their trash scholarship waste our time.
If you cannot contribute something intelligent…that is asking for too much…if you cannot contribute something at least relevant to the topic, then shut your mouth. Quit. Retire. Your trash scholarship ends up getting back to me and wasting my time. Stop grabbing verses here and there and throwing them in every direction to see if you can hit someone or win by accident when they are not even relevant to the disagreement about the distinction in the doctrine.
If you disagree with something, then punch it in the face — but you have to find the face first — instead of flailing your arms around aimlessly like an idiot. Stop being a bunch of theological brats. Get serious. Grow up.